Soh Wei Yu

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Yin Ling

Book recommendation for post anatta:

"john tan commented after reading [redditor who recently realised anatta, Mr. JKB] msgs:

[24/12/21, 1:44:08 AM] John Tan: Next he must understand freedom from all elaborations.

[24/12/21, 9:24:04 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic.. any books u think he should start on?

[24/12/21, 9:26:30 AM] John Tan: Not easy, it will be too difficult for him to read mmk. The reason is mmk is not strictly written for the modern ppl but to refute the other buddhist schools and philosophers.

[24/12/21, 9:47:10 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic but what to start on? I think greg goode recommended dalai lama how to see yourself as you really are as starter

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[24/12/21, 10:36:40 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Maybe i shld introduce mipham books to him too? Beacon of certainty?

[24/12/21, 10:44:11 AM] John Tan: Yes but will still need to sort out a lot for him. Anatta is just the beginning so it is not easy to understand at a single go. If we do not read the teachings of great masters like Mipham and Tsongkhapa's with a reverent mind, we will be frequently doing "spiritual bypassing" in our reading colored by insights of anatta.

[24/12/21, 10:44:44 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[24/12/21, 10:44:58 AM] Soh Wei Yu: For tsongkhapa which books you recommend?

[24/12/21, 10:51:18 AM] John Tan: It is even more difficult to understand Tsongkhapa if ur anatta isn't matured enough to penetrate deeply into the conventional and that includes understanding the energy system of ur body in his tantra teachings. It is more advisable and much more intuitive to progress one's insight from anatta to freedom from all elaborations into spontaneous presence.

[24/12/21, 10:53:26 AM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

[24/12/21, 11:08:29 AM] John Tan: ‎This message was deleted.

[24/12/21, 11:14:35 AM] John Tan: There r books all around about gelug's teaching of emptiness as mmk is dominated by gelug's interpretation. It is how u "feel" the heart of his teachings. The only problem I feel is his rejection of "freedom from all elaborations" which imo is a "pivotal insight" as he felt it is dangerous illustrate the view, path, result the way those sudden schools of enlightenment present it as evidenced by those non-dual junkies in FB . This is not to say he knows nothing abt it. He is just too compassionate and put great effort in making his teachings systematic, logical and step by step without compromising "selflessness", it is a transformative and developmental approach towards liberation.

There r many good books that tell u clearly how appearances should be understood and how non-dual experiences are like for Tsongkhapa. "The two truths debate" (Soh: can refer to this article for a short excerpt: https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../tsongkhapas... ) will be a good read if u want to understand the non-dual experiences of the gelug. "Self, reality and reason in Tibetan philosophy" is also good. But I think they did not present the freedom of all elaborations correctly or, lots of bias same applies to other books. That is y if u do not read with a reverent heart, u will not gain anything and simply "bypass".

[24/12/21, 6:02:47 PM] Soh Wei Yu: Oic..

xabir Snoovatar

https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../book...

https://www.amazon.com.au/.../B00.../ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0...

"

Also for a general overview of Mipham's teachings, can read https://www.amazon.com/Jamgon-Mipam-His.../dp/1590306694 which is also good

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

Tsongkhapa's Epistemic Nonduality

Tsongkhapa's Epistemic Nonduality

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John Tan: I think u have read enough of books and u already have the books needed to refine your understandings post anatta. 

From anatta-->deconstruction of both mind and phenomena into empty appearances as one's radiance clarity-->freedom from all elaborations (mmk)-->spontaneous presence

What u lack is the nuances of anatta in actual experience that is difficult to tell as the energy system differs for each person and can only be known by that individual when he tasted it.  Otherwise u just actualize through the 6 parimatas.

Find out what diet combinations help u detox so that your inner organs become healthy and less inflammatory + deep restful sleep.  U have to understand what is most crucial is the evenness of non-dual at the moment of sleep and the moment…

Soh: Oic..
[12:20 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: When u say "Cause and effect are empty but not a rejection of dependent origination", do u know what it means? (Soh: from Don't Neglect the Conventional)
[8:48 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Y do u like to cut and put our conversations in other forums for what?
[8:48 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: A simple answer just answer Ur own

Soh: Oic..
Cause and effect are empty doesnt mean they are nonexistent
But they are dependent designations.. like father and son (Soh: see Relationship Between Father and Son and Dzogchen: Beyond Cause and Effect). So it is not inherent cause and inherent production. Like chariot and parts are also dependent designations.. awareness and object of awareness.. and so on. In freedom from proliferation, awareness and object of awareness, cause and effect are all emptied into nondual suchness.. but in terms of relative they are expressed as dependent designations. Father and son, consciousness and object of consciousness and so on are neither same nor different, merely dependently designated and empty
In terms of relative the seeing of dependent designation also allows penetrating into total exertion
Freedom from proliferation is more like -A

John Tan: Yes also Like cup or self, although these r conceptual notions however they have conventional validity.  There is no "cup" or "self" are empty and non-arisen, but there r conventional validity in that there is a functioning purpose.  Cause and effect serves their purpose this way linking the conventions.

Soh: Oic.. like that time malcolm mentioned,

Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Oct 27, 2021 4:09 am
Well, actually the I-making habit, the basic knowledge obscuration, has no real existence as a self, but it functions as an agent of karma and a recipient of karma, so there is that, even though the "I" it imputes does not exist at all.


...

No, it is an imagined, nonexistent self that causes and experiences everything, for example, when a car is in accident, it is the imagined car for which one pays the damages, not the wrong view of the imagined car. But perhaps this is a special point of Candrakīrti's Madhyamaka, unlikely to be found the Visuddhimagga.
[10:27 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Lol yeah
[10:28 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: When we neglect all these, we become nihilistic.
[10:29 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: What the non prasangika don't understand is they thought there must be real referent in order to have causal efficacy.
Soh: Ic..
[10:31 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Even in objective science, gravity explains perfectly the man-size John Tan: Newtonian world but there is no "gravity" as a force pulling any object as explained in relativity.
[10:33 pm, 28/12/2021] John Tan: Like fiat money is empty but moves the world.
Soh: Oic..
John Tan: And it is precisely that because the conventional r empty of any essential nature, such causal relationships r possible, inherent and truly existing things can't.