Also see: U.G. Krishnamurti: The Mystique of Enlightenment (U.G. describes mind-body drop well)
- Soh Wei Yu This mind-body drop must later be transformed into Dharma Body, which is Maha total exertion, as I wrote in https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../dharma-body_7...
2009:
(4:48 PM) Thusness: for ven jue xing, it is the mind body drop and the crystal transparency of our Buddha mind.
(4:49 PM) Thusness: how old is she?
and what happen to her?
(4:53 PM) Thusness: to progress into another phase, it is important to do exercise...hehe
a healthy body for a healthy mind
(4:53 PM) Thusness: after maturing of anatta insight, it is even more important.
one cannot neglect that.
(4:54 PM) Thusness: the body must also be able to support the realisation :P
(4:55 PM) AEN: otherwise like wat u said that time too intense or something?
(4:55 PM) Thusness: yes
(4:56 PM) Thusness: after maturing of insight anatta and emptiness, sitting meditation becomes not that important but engagement becomes more important
like practicing the 6 paramitas
(4:57 PM) Thusness: but still need to sit.
(4:58 PM) Thusness: that is similar to 'dong zhong xiu' (practice amidst movement)
the experience becomes maha sort of experience.
(4:59 PM) Thusness: means her experience of mind body drop is being transform into crystal transparency into maha
(4:59 PM) Thusness: but it does mean that which state is higher or what...
(5:00 PM) Thusness: that will be like Zen Master Bernie - Soh Wei Yu Oh, found it. I wrote it on Jun 4, 2013, 9:28:00 PM. About three months before I wrote Dharma Body article
- Reply
- 9w
- Edited
It
is true that when no-self is actualized and when the body is
deconstructed, a practitioner naturally experiences the mind-body drop.
This means any sense or image of a body and a mind completely dissolves
along with any senses of 'entrapment' or 'boundaries' at all.
But do note that this is not a stage of meditative achievement. It is the result of wisdom-insight into the delusional constructions the conceives of a substantial body and a mind. In other words it is a form of self-view and view of a physical body being dissolved via prajna wisdom. Our notion of a solid body with fixed shape, boundaries, and substance deconstructs when we examine it and see that there is only flickering sensations without a center or boundary.
But do note that this is not a stage of meditative achievement. It is the result of wisdom-insight into the delusional constructions the conceives of a substantial body and a mind. In other words it is a form of self-view and view of a physical body being dissolved via prajna wisdom. Our notion of a solid body with fixed shape, boundaries, and substance deconstructs when we examine it and see that there is only flickering sensations without a center or boundary.
After which, mind-body drop becomes natural and effortless, not a stage
to be attained in meditation and lost outside meditation.
And because this is so, *mind body drop is an experience in daily life*. It is not separated from your mind, body, and daily life. It does not mean your body and mind ceases - it is your deluded image of an inherently existing self, body and mind is being released, so your daily life is experienced in a liberated manner.
Therefore it is erroneous to think of "mind-body drop" as a stage of achievement separated from this very experience of body-mind-world. It is only that this body-mind-world is seen as empty of anything graspable, transparent, and boundless. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.
More importantly, by that stage, you realize that "Awareness" itself is an imputation on the entire flow of manifestation - "Awareness" itself does not exist separately apart from each momentary mind moment, whether it is a sense of formless presence in deep sleep, or the shapes and forms of each waking moment. In other words, Awareness is also empty of being an independent, separate self.
Since this is the case, it is seen at this stage that the very notion of "true absolute Awareness" vs "phenomena" is a false, dualistic paradigm in the first place. There is only the one suchness of form and essence - in so far as each experience, each form, is both luminous clarity (Awareness) in essence and empty of self in nature. This is the nature of mind.
- Soh Wei Yu
And because this is so, *mind body drop is an experience in daily life*. It is not separated from your mind, body, and daily life. It does not mean your body and mind ceases - it is your deluded image of an inherently existing self, body and mind is being released, so your daily life is experienced in a liberated manner.
Therefore it is erroneous to think of "mind-body drop" as a stage of achievement separated from this very experience of body-mind-world. It is only that this body-mind-world is seen as empty of anything graspable, transparent, and boundless. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.
More importantly, by that stage, you realize that "Awareness" itself is an imputation on the entire flow of manifestation - "Awareness" itself does not exist separately apart from each momentary mind moment, whether it is a sense of formless presence in deep sleep, or the shapes and forms of each waking moment. In other words, Awareness is also empty of being an independent, separate self.
Since this is the case, it is seen at this stage that the very notion of "true absolute Awareness" vs "phenomena" is a false, dualistic paradigm in the first place. There is only the one suchness of form and essence - in so far as each experience, each form, is both luminous clarity (Awareness) in essence and empty of self in nature. This is the nature of mind.
- Soh Wei Yu
Comments
- Darryl Snaychuk How very Vedanta sounding! <3 span="">
- Soh Wei Yu The Advaita teacher Rupert Spira also described the insight of mind-body drop in his early book, 'The Transparency of Things', although more from the One Mind perspective (his insights has since matured even further)
Rupert:
"Taking our stand as this ever-present Consciousness, we can look again at our experience and see that we never actually experience the mind, the body or the world in the way that we usually conceive them.
The mind consists of this current thought or image, whatever it is we are thinking or imagining in this moment. There is no container called the mind in which all our memories, hopes, fears and desires are stored. Whenever a memory, hope, fear or desire appears, it appears as a current thought.
The idea that there is a mind which contains memories, hopes, fears and desires, is itself simply a thought that appears from time to time like any other thought, in Consciousness.
There is no mind. The existence of a mind is simply an idea, a concept. It is a useful concept but it is not a fact. It is not an experience.
Likewise we do not experience the body in the way we normally conceive it. In fact there is no body. There is a series of sensations and perceptions appearing in Consciousness. And from time to time there is a thought or in image of a ‘body, ’ which is considered to be the sum total of all these sensations and perceptions.
However this thought appears in Consciousness in exactly the same way as the sensations and perceptions to which it refers, appear. This apparent body has no more substance than a thought. In fact that it was it is, an idea.
If we stick closely to the actual experience of our bodily sensations, we see that they are shapeless and contourless. We may experience a visual perception of the skin and from several perceptions conceive a well-defined border which contains all other bodily sensations. However, this conception does not describe the reality of our experience.
The visual perception of the surface of the body is one perception. A bodily sensation is another perception. When one of these perceptions is present the other is not. If they are both present, they are one perception, one experience.
One perception cannot appear within another. All perceptions appear within Consciousness. We do not experience a sensation inside the body. The body is the experience of a sensation.
We do not experience a sensation within a well-defined contour of skin. We experience a sensation within Consciousness and we experience a visual perception within Consciousness.
We can explore this further by imagining what it would be like to draw our actual experience of the body at any given moment, on a piece of paper. Would it look anything like the body we normally conceive? Would it not be a collection of minute, amorphous abstract marks, floating on the page, without a shape or a border?
Is not the actual experience of the body a collection of minute, amorphous, tingling sensations free-floating in the space of Consciousness?
The continuity and coherence that we normally ascribe to the body, belong to Consciousness.
In fact our true body is Consciousness. It is Consciousness that houses all the sensations that we normally refer to as ‘the body.’
Our true body is open, transparent, weightless and limitless. It is inherently empty and yet contains all things within itself. That is why such an empty body is also inherently loving. It is the embrace of all things." - DS: Experience is shapes of knowledge which have no physical weight.
- Geovani Geo Soh, but he is clearly positing a Consciusness.
"It is Consciousness that houses all the sensations that we normally refer to as ‘the body.’"
"Is not the actual experience of the body a collection of minute, amorphous, tingling sensations free-floating in the space of Consciousness?"
" We experience a sensation within Consciousness and we experience a visual perception within Consciousness."
etc.... - Soh Wei Yu Geovani Geo like I said, Rupert is describing from One Mind phase + deconstruction of mind/body, not anatta
- Geovani Geo Yes, one mind
- Soh Wei Yu How the phases play out may not be completely same and linear for each person. Some deconstruct mind/body in One Mind, in my case it was not long after anatta realization. So my opening post was a little misleading in saying that "More importantly, by that stage, you realize that "Awareness" itself is an imputation on the entire flow of manifestation" -- that need not be the case.
https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/.../advice-for...
Advice for Taiyaki
Last year, a forummer from the NewBuddhist forum (Albert Hong a.k.a. Taiyaki) penetrated within a year the realization of I AM to non dual and anatta. He is an avid reader of this blog.
Thusness wrote the following pointers for him:
"There are several points that maybe of help to Taiyaki:
1. First there must be a deep conviction that arising does not need an essence. That view of subjective essence is simply a convenient view.
2. First emptying of self/Self does not necessarily lead to illusion-like experience of reality. It does however allows experience to become vivid, luminous, direct and non-dual.
3. First emptying may also lead a practitioner to be attached to an 'objective' world or turns physical. The 'dualistic' tendency will resurface after a period of few months so it is advisable to monitor one's progress for a few months.
4. Second emptying of phenomena will turn experience illusion-like but take note of how emptying of phenomena is simply extending the same "emptiness view" of Self/self.
5. From these experiences and realizations, contemplate what is meant by "thing", what is meant by mere construct and imputation.
6. "Mind and body drop" are simply dissolving of mind and body constructs. If one day the experience of anatta turns a practitioner to the attachment of an 'objective and actual' world, deconstruct "physical".
7. There is a relationship between "mental constructs", energy, luminosity and weight. A practitioner will experience a release of energies, freedom, clarity and feel light and weightless deconstructing 'mental constructs'.
8. Also understand how the maha experience of interpenetration and non-obstruction is related to deconstructions of inherent view.
9. No body, no mind, no dependent origination, no nothing, no something, no birth, no death. Profoundly deconstructed and emptied! Just vivid shimmering appearances as Primordial Suchness in one whole seamless unobstructed-interpenetration."
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Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Space-Like Emptiness and Illusion-Like Dependent O...":
Being clothed in this dense material form,this body-brain-nervous system,ones perception is severely enslaved/limited .....
Obviously,after death,for some period of time,not being subjected to limited body-brain perception/experience,
ones view and perception will b greatly expanded ....Many things which couldnt be seen while in this body,with all its fight-flight response(biochemical ,hormonal caused) will bcome clearer...
And there will be a period of life review,when one sees the life just lived ,and with it comes variety of consciousness(contenment,regret,sorrow etc...) ...
My Q is .. wats yr view(whether theoretical or if even better,personal experiences) of getting this "expanded mind/consciousness" while still in this body ? Its so hard to get in waking state ...How to hypnotize oneself(if possible) to get "out-of -body- consciousness" ?
And no,im not talking abt no-self,nondual or anything like dat..but really abt reaching a "bodiless" (if can put it dat way) expanded perception,where the grip of self-preservation,selfishness,resentment ,worldly desires etc.. is lessen and a better perspective(eg.. dat we r simply a passerby in this temporal earth life etc...) is attained ....And such perception is obviously different frm belief , for belief is blind...but this is 'closer to reality' view....
Soh has left a new comment on your post "Space-Like Emptiness and Illusion-Like Dependent O...":
Out of body experience does not liberate. It is very common, a high percentage of people will experience it some time in their life even if they did not engage in spiritual practices. It does not help other than maybe shift one's perspective a little bit.
Body-mind drop helps. The complete dissolution of body-consciousness can happen by two ways:
1) Deep samadhi
2) Deep realization.
You need to get to Stage 4 and 5 and deconstruct mind-body for the dissolving of body-consciousness to be permanent. This is described by teachers like Rupert Spira and U.G. Krishnamurti (https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2018/10/ug-krishnamurti-mystique-of.html)
You will not experience it permanently through meditation alone.
Zen Master Dogen and many other teachers, including my Taiwanese Mahayana teacher, as well as Thusness, often emphasizes "mind body drop". So this is an important phase. You will experience it eventually if you have the correct insights and practice.
One can experience mind-body drop as a stage in samadhi but it will be temporary without deep nondual realization.
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