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Another Post Refuting Solipsism

Saturday, June 01, 2024 Open post →
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Mr E posted:


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Sometimes I feel like I'm animating life as I go and everything is happening in my awareness and this awareness is imagining itself to be this body. It's playing all the roles and others are actors. When i see people in traffic, once they're out of my sight and I'm not aware of them, that's it, they're gone as they never existed. Although I could have assumptions that they're going somewhere real.

Also past historic events are all made up by my mind and they never happened. It feels like solipsism but even what I identify myself as body and mind aren't real. Like I'm God and I'm playing with myself and this time I had to forget it and now I'm using all sorts of spiritual practices to wake myself up. Just like how it is in a dream

Has anyone else experienced this? Kind of depressing . Intense meditation is what sets me free from these thoughts.



Soh replied:

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There's a whole chapter in the long/original AtR guide that is a thorough refutation and negation of solipsism that you should read. The third document in https://www.awakeningtoreality.com/2022/06/the-awakening-to-reality-practice-guide.html . It's too long to post here so I'll only paste a few short excerpts.

[1:07 PM, 11/25/2020] John Tan: Only when you subsume into one, it turns solipsistic. So either freedom of extremes or you see DO and total exertion and emptiness. Then you do not fall into extremes.

“Although Bhāviveka doesn’t struggle that much, he is quite clear:

“Since [the tīrthika position of] self, permanence, all pervasiveness and oneness contradict their opposite, [the Buddhist position of] no-self, impermanence, non-pervasiveness and multiplicity, they are completely different.” – Kyle Dixon, 2020

“Bhāviveka demonstrates the proper way to view buddhanature:

The statement "The tathāgata pervades" means wisdom pervades all objects of knowledge, but it does not mean abiding in everything like Viśnu. Further, "Tathāgatagarbhin" means emptiness, signlessness and absence of aspiration exist the continuums of all sentient beings, but is not an inner personal agent pervading everyone.” – Kyle Dixon, 2021

Jake Karat

I once slipped into a solipsistic state - admittedly after consuming to much cannabis over a summer after graduating high school - and it was terrifying. I look back and have realized after reading more on Buddhism that there was something missing to the "approach".

This is where "No-Self" is so important to understand. Solipsism could be the result of "non-duality" IF there is still an attachment to a sense of "Self", in which case non-dual is still not fully understood.

When there is no "Self", there is no, "There's only me.", perspective. There are just "happenings", which include the stream of conceptualizations that give an appearance and feeling of a "Self" in the first place.

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Soh Wei Yu

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Jake Karat

John Tan wrote:

Yes solipsistic state can be overcome by:

1. What he said.

2. Overcoming the sense of "mine".

3. Also by de-constructing via dependent designation into kadag, primordial purity.

4. Essencelessness

Solipsisim is an extreme of deducing a conclusion using our existing dualistic and inherent paradigm. Negation without affirming anything will not.

Likewise de-construction does not lead into an all encompassing space, that too is an abstraction and extrapolation. It is to slowly allow us to see through the faulty premise and open up the entire field.

• • Reply

...

“The subsuming of everything into one's mind took place because one's mind seems to be the common factor in the mode of enquiry in solipsism.

However if using the same line of reasoning, it is in others’ mind as well. If everything is in everyone's mind, then mind is no more the common factor but "Everything". If you see this common factor of everything and shift your attention to everything, then experience turns very "physical".

Prasangika overcomes such issue by inquiring into its "inherentness". Taking the “seed-plant-tree" example, why is the seed "growing"? Is there anything at the side of the "sprout" that is saying it is growing? It can be understood as a decaying process as well.” - John Tan, 2019

John Tan on how the tendency of solipsism arises post non-dual: “Characteristics of internal and private not deconstructed. Just like when the line that demarcates left and right dissolved, it does not mean all of left has become right or all of right has become left.” – John Tan, 2021

...

Some conversations with John back in 2012 are quite illuminating on this subject:

John: To me is just is "Soh" an eternal being...that's all. No denial of Soh as a conventional self. All is just him is an inference too. There is no other is also an assumption.

Soh: That's what I said, lol. He didn't see it.

John: But other mindstreams is a more valid assumption. Don't you think so? And verifiable.

Soh: Yeah.

John: Whatever in conventional reality still remain, only that reification is seen through. Get it? The centre is seen through be it "subject" or "object", they are imputed mental constructs. Only the additional "ghostly something" is seen through. Not construing and reifying. Nothing that "subject" does not exist. This seeing through itself led to implicit non-dual experience.

Soh: "Nothing that "subject" does not exist." - what you mean?

John: Not "subject" or "object" does not exist. Or dissolving object into subject or subject into object… etc. That "extra" imputation is seen through. Conventional reality still remain as it is. By the way, focus more on practice in releasing any holdings.... do not keep engaging on all these.

Soh: I see.. Conventional reality are just names imposed on non-inherent aggregates, right.

John: Yes. That led to releasing of the mind from holding...no subsuming of anything. What you wrote is unclear. Do you get what I mean? Doesn't mean Soh does not exist… lol. Or I am you or you are me. Just not construing and reifying.

Soh: I see. Nondual is collapsing objects to self, thus I am you. Anatta simply sees through reification, but conventionally I am I, you are you.

John: Or collapsing subject into object. You are still unclear about this and mixed up. Seeing through the reification of "subject", "object", "self", "now", "here". Get it? Seeing through "self" led to implicit non-dual experience. Because experience turns direct without reification. In seeing, just scenery. Like you see through the word "weather". That weather-Ness. Be it subject/object/weather/...etc. That is mind free of seeing "things" existing inherently. Experience turns vivid direct and releasing. But I don't want you to keep participating idle talk and neglect practice… always over emphasizing unnecessarily. What happens to experience?

Soh: you mean after anatta? Direct, luminous, but no ground of abiding (like some inherent awareness).

John: And what do you mean by that?

Soh: Means there are only transient six sense streams experience, in seen just seen, etc. Nothing extra.

John: Six stream experiences is just a convenient raft. Nothing ultimate. Not only must you see that there is no Seer + seeing + seen… you must see the immense connectedness. Implicit Non-dual in experience in anatta to you means what?” - Soh, 2014

“Buddha never used the term "self" to refer to an unconditioned, permanent, ultimate entity. He also never asserted that there was no conventional "self," the subject of transactional discourse. So, it is very clear in the sutras that the Buddha negated an ultimate self and did not negate a conventional self.” – Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith, 2020

“Anatman is the negation of an unconditioned, permanent, ultimate entity that moves from one temporary body to another. It is not the negation of "Sam," "Fred," or "Jane" used as a conventional designation for a collection of aggregates. Since the Buddha clearly states in many Mahāyāna sūtras, "all phenomena" are not self, and since everything is included there, including buddhahood, therefore, there are no phenomena that can be called a self, and since there are nothing outside of all phenomena, a "self," other than an arbitrary designation, does not exist.”

- Dzogchen teacher Acarya Malcolm Smith

The Awakening to Reality Practice Guide and AtR Guide - abridged version

AWAKENINGTOREALITY.COM

The Awakening to Reality Practice Guide and AtR Guide - abridged version

The Awakening to Reality Practice Guide and AtR Guide - abridged version

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Saturday, June 01, 2024 Open post →
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Awakening to Reality multilingual article guide

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Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

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On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection

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Buddha Nature is NOT "I Am"

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Realization and Experience and Non-Dual Experience from Different Perspectives

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Different Degrees of No-Self: Non-Doership, Non-dual, Anatta, Total Exertion and Dealing with Pitfalls

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Transcript of AtR (Awakening to Reality) Meeting, March 2021

Monday, May 20, 2024 Open post →
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 Also see: Transcript of Lankavatara Sutra with Thusness 2007

Transcript with Thusness - Heart of Mahakashyapa, +A and -A Emptiness
Transcript with Thusness - 2012 Self-Releasing
Transcript with Thusness 2013 - Dharmakaya 
Transcript with Thusness 2012 - Group Gathering


Second transcription done! Read at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MYAVGmj8JD8IAU8rQ7krwFvtGN1PNmaoDNLOCRcCTAw/edit ChatGPT's summary: Synopsis and Timeline of AtR Meeting, March 2021


I. INTRODUCTION AND CONTEXT (00:00–05:00)

• Setting and Opening Remarks

  • The conversation begins informally with John Tan recalling an interaction many years prior with a 15-year-old who seemed to be talking about concepts related to emptiness (Nagarjuna and the Heart Sutra).
  • John expresses surprise that someone so young would discuss “emptiness here, emptiness there” and highlights the challenges of clarity in such discussions.

• Early Dharma Exposure

  • Soh briefly mentions his own exposure to Dharma teachings, reading the Heart Sutra at a young age and developing an “intuitive understanding” that turned out later to be incomplete.
  • There is an indication that these early experiences planted the seeds for subsequent insights: “That was six years later… after my I Am, then non-dual, then I realized anatta.”

II. FIRST MAIN SEGMENT (05:00–20:00)
Early Insights, Anatta, and Schools of Buddhism

• Phases of Insight

  • John Tan references writing about “phases of insight” years ago and notes how, beyond a certain phase, it becomes very difficult to articulate clearly.
  • He suggests anatta (no-self) is comparatively straightforward to realize, but “after that it may not be that easy.”

• Yogacara vs. Madhyamaka

  • Discussion turns toward two major Mahayana schools:
    1. Yogacara / Wei Shi (Consciousness Only) – Emphasis on three natures (imagined, dependent, and perfect) and how we mistakenly treat conceptual constructs as independently real.
    2. Madhyamaka / Nagarjuna’s Emptiness – Key focus on seeing through inherent existence and extremes.
  • John highlights how Yogacara is not “just consciousness” but deeply about emptiness; it arose partly as a reaction to purely “nihilistic” readings of emptiness.

• Constructs and Direct Experience

  • The speakers explore how anatta is the first instance of “seeing through construct,” dropping the sense of a background self.
  • The difference between direct experience (appearances, sensations) and our conceptual overlay is underscored.
  • John Tan warns that simply having a non-dual experience can still leave people clinging to a “universal Self” or “pure subjectivity.” True Buddhist insight (anatta) instead dissolves the background self altogether.

III. SECOND MAIN SEGMENT (20:00–35:00)
Deconstructing Inherent Existence, Cause and Effect, and the Nature of Appearances

• Cause and Effect, Existence/Non-existence

  • John delves into classical Madhyamaka reasoning: analyzing production (whether things can arise from themselves, from others, both, or causelessly) and concluding that all such positions fail under ultimate analysis.
  • He highlights how language imposes constructs—like “in” vs. “out,” or “arising” vs. “ceasing”—and how we habitually assume an inherent reality behind those labels.

• Seeing Through Constructs

  • The conversation emphasizes the subtlety of seeing through constructs for phenomena (not just for “self”).
  • John distinguishes the direct, intuitive taste of non-duality (where “in hearing, only sound”) from the thorough philosophical analysis that uproots the most deeply held beliefs about arising, abiding, and cessation.

• Practice and Gradual Refinement

  • Even after initial realization of anatta, fully grasping the emptiness of causality or the emptiness of phenomena typically requires deeper study and contemplation.
  • John notes it is “not so simple” and “there is a lot of subtlety” when confronting conceptual proliferation at every level.

IV. THIRD MAIN SEGMENT (35:00–55:00)
Practice Methods, Non-dual Experience, and Overcoming Subsuming Tendencies

• Practice Approaches

  • Koans (gong an) in Zen: forcing the mind to confront paradox (“Before birth, who are you?”), possibly leading to a powerful insight.
  • The difference between a fleeting experience of non-duality (“entry and exit”) and a stable wisdom that does not revert (meaning it does not revert to dualistic grasping).

• Vipassana and Actionless Action (Wu Wei)

  • One speaker asks how simple body-sensation practices yield insight. John replies that in Buddhism, “wisdom” arises through seeing through constructs—yet certain practice styles (Vipassana, or Taoist “Wu Wei”) can also erode the sense of self in day-to-day life.
  • Taoism is mentioned (Chuang Tzu’s “sitting and forgetting,” merging with action) and paralleled with the Buddhist notion of anatta (Soh: although the former is a state of no-mind while the latter is a realisation into one's nature as a dharma seal, see Anatta is a Dharma Seal or Truth that is Always Already So, Anatta is Not a State). Buddhism, however, lays out the mechanics of emptiness more explicitly.

• Buddhist Texts and Real-Life Application

  • John and others stress how some traditional Buddhist texts—especially those analyzing emptiness—provide a precise, systematic way to deconstruct mental constructs.
  • This clarity can help unify daily activity (like archery, dancing, or simply working) with a sense of no-agent, or “actionless action,” dissolving the doer–doing gap.

V. FOURTH MAIN SEGMENT (55:00–70:00)
Original Enlightenment vs. Practice Enlightenment, Dogen, and Further Nuances

• Dogen and “Practice Enlightenment”

  • John references the Zen master Dogen’s famous question: If there is “original enlightenment,” why do we suffer? Dogen’s solution is “practice enlightenment,” meaning enlightenment is discovered only in and as each moment of activity.
  • John resonates with this as identical in spirit to the anatta insight: apart from walking, sitting, hearing, there is no separate, static “background purity.”

• Buddha Nature and Subtle Clarity

  • Tibetan Dzogchen lines of thought appear, discussing “clear light” in deep meditation or at the final dissolution (bardo).
  • However, John clarifies that from the anatta perspective, any notion of an unchanging background presence is still a conceptual overlay. Realizing “presence is empty” is pivotal.

• Solipsism vs. Emptiness

  • Subsuming everything into a single “Self” can lead to solipsism or idealism.
  • Buddhist non-duality denies a separate observer but also does not reduce the world to one’s private mind.

VI. FIFTH MAIN SEGMENT (70:00–END ~90:00)
Dreams, Deeper Practices, and Concluding Reflections

• Dream Experiences and Advanced Stages

  • The conversation shifts to remarkable dream states, where insights or teachings arise that the individual does not fully grasp in waking life.
  • John and Soh share stories of vivid dream experiences in which they experience non-duality, “pure presence,” or even instructions on Kundalini-like energy work.

• Phases Beyond Anatta

  • John references continuing stages: from anatta insight to deeper freedom from constructs (the “seventh phase” or “spontaneous presence” in his personal notes).
  • He points out such experiences can arise spontaneously in dreams or contemplations, offering further clarity.

• Cautions and Remarks

  • John cautions against turning 'Awakening to Reality' (AtR) into a cult or rigid system. He emphasizes that it is intended for informal sharing rather than as an authoritative doctrine. However, he adds that what is expressed in AtR is authentic, meaning it is based on truths verified through personal experience.

VII. KEY THEMES AND INSIGHTS

  1. Seeing Through the Background Self

    • True anatta involves recognizing that the “background presence” is itself a mental or linguistic construct. Dropping this background yields effortless, non-dual perception.

  2. Distinction Between Temporary Experience and Lasting Insight

    • One may experience a flash of non-duality, but sustaining liberation requires deeper “prajna” (wisdom) that deconstructs all constructs.

  3. Yogacara and Madhyamaka

    • Both point to emptiness but approach it differently. Yogacara emphasizes the “three natures” (imagined, dependent, perfect), while Madhyamaka uses rigorous logic to dismantle inherent existence.

  4. Practice Enlightenment

    • Dogen’s teachings highlight that enlightenment is found precisely in ongoing practice—there is no hidden, original consciousness waiting; “apart from practice, there is no enlightenment.”

  5. Practical Methods

    • Day-to-day incorporation of non-dual awareness: merging with action (no “actor”), eliminating ideas of success/failure, abiding in the immediate moment without conceptual overlays. (Note by Soh: This part wasn't summarized well by ChatGPT, the practical methods go far beyond this and therefore I highly recommend reading the AtR Practice Guide at least: The Awakening to Reality Practice Guide and AtR Guide - abridged version)

  6. Dream States and Spontaneous Realizations

    • Dream experiences can reveal deeper insights or help articulate subtleties that the waking mind struggles to formulate.

VIII. CONCLUSION

• Closing Remarks

  • The conversation tapers off with emphasis on not over-intellectualizing or turning the discussion into a dogma.
  • A final reminder is given that while reading texts, engaging reason, and reflecting on experiences are crucial, real transformation stems from one’s direct insight and ongoing practice.

• Action Items / Takeaways

  • Continue contemplative and analytical approaches (e.g., Vipassana, Zen koans, Madhyamaka analysis) to break down conceptual clinging.
  • Appreciate that deeper stages of insight move beyond a simple flash of awakening and include embodying emptiness in every moment, including dreams and daily life.
  • Stay vigilant against reifying new insights into dogmas—personal verification is key.


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